Skeptic Refuses to Debate Michael Horn on Billy Meier UFO Case

Paying attention to what people don’t say can often be the key

When I listened to the interview with Mahesh Kurumudi, aka Mahigtam, I was appalled by the inaccuracies, broad generalizations and illogical conclusions spouted by him and the host. The same host had a prior show in which he and a partner also attacked the Meier case. I was surprised that in neither case did they invite me to debate, present counter evidence, etc.

I recently emailed the show stating that I should be notified by Saturday, August 22, of their willingness to conduct such an interview with me and, should I not receive it, I would consider that they have capitulated and retracted their own inaccurate, uninformed and idiotic attacks and baseless conclusions. Since I received no such invitation, I consider no answer to indeed be an answer and that they have effectively withdrawn their attacks because they recognize that they are completely without foundation, substance, etc., as well as admitting to their own ineptitude.

Offer to Debate

As for Mahesh, Michael Vara, the host of Late Night in the Midlands, and I agreed to extend an invitation to Mahesh to debate me during my interview on Tuesday, August 26. It seemed like an excellent opportunity for Mahesh to follow through with his intention to “deconstruct Michael Horn”, his actual purpose that he accidentally revealed on a Facebook forum last year.

Despite his long, stubborn refusal to simply express his actual opinion on the case – he claims he simply publishes pro and con material equally – he’s apparently long harbored not only skepticism, which he revealed in the interview, but some kind of aspirations to be what, the anti-Meier and anti-Horn?

To be clear there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, or anti the case. There is something unsavory about someone who masquerades and misrepresents his motives, goals, position, etc. Many people were dismayed that Mahesh had solicited often costly, original books, photos, documentation, etc., in the Meier case from their owners under the guise of wanting to “archive it for the future”, when his actual agenda may be a bit more profit oriented than that; time will tell.

Mahesh sent the following cowardly response to Michael Vara

"Thank you for the invitation, but I'm afraid I have to decline to come on the show together with Michael Horn, and I will tell you my reasons why.

Of course I've long before shared my 'critical' findings with Michael Horn and I, as well as others, tried to discuss them with him on many platforms. Unfortunately I've experienced again and again and again that it is virtually impossible to have a discussion about any specific criticism I, or others, bring up. He will constantly move the goalpost, resort to personal insult, fire strawman after strawman, bring up issues unrelated to the topic under discussion, flat out denies the facts and so forth.

I have no reason to expect it will be any different when we appear both on your show. I am willing to appear on your show alone and make my case, and after that you are of course free to invite Michael Horn to respond or vice versa. But if we both appear in the same show I'm afraid it will result in a mud fest.

Once again, thank you for the invitation."

He seems to either be a bit unclear on how things like this actually work, or he’s deliberately trying to dictate the terms of the conversation, while pointedly avoiding having the discussion on the merits of his overall argument against the case.

I’ve chosen a few of his statements from the interview and responded to them based on what I know about the Meier case…and how real investigative work is conducted. Perhaps this will be a bit tedious for people who aren’t interested in such things but hopefully it will also be informative and illustrate why many people and I had previously been frustrated at the way Mahesh has misrepresented the case and liberally painted Meier as someone who was willfully dishonest, a faker, hoaxer and plagiarizer…without even one piece of substantiated evidence.

The fact that Meier has a many decades long record of impeccable honesty and good character, which few if any people can rival, is easily determined by anyone who actually researches all of the evidence, the published findings by the investigators, the character references from dozens of friends, family members and acquaintances, etc. – as well as the numerous other photographers, eyewitnesses and the independent professional, many years long on-site investigations that corroborated the consistency and credibility of Meier’s claims and evidence.

Contrast this to the shoddy efforts of an online armchair expert and the disparity is frightening. Many are the poor, disadvantaged, fairly young people of today who think that doing searches on the internet is a substitute for knowing how to…think. In Mahesh, we just may have a poster boy for the digital know-it-all generation.

The Real Question:

Is there Evidence that the Case Is Authentic?

First, if the evidence substantiates the case then, of course, the skeptical arguments completely fall apart.

What I’ve done below is to quote or paraphrase Mahesh and then comment on what he’s said.

The first thing to notice is…what isn’t there.

Prominent among what’s missing are any references by Mahesh not only to the original analyses of the evidence but to the three new, independent photo analyses done within the last year that authenticate Meier’s UFO evidence. The first one, a 74-page analysis of the WCUFO photos by Rhal Zahi, closes out any and all arguments against it, which is obviously why Mahesh conspicuously avoided even mentioning it. And it’s not the first time, as he’s been asked numerous times before to address this glaringly credible support for the case.

In fact, no skeptic to date has rebutted the WCUFO analysis, or the two other analyses (of the Pendulum UFO film, by Zahi, and the Energy Ships photographs, by Zahi and Chris Lock). Unlike the previous analyses from the early 1980s – which Mahesh also very conspicuously didn’t mention or attempt to rebut – this analysis not only has all the protocols plainly listed but the technologies utilized are available to people to use right on their own computers. (See: for links to the three new analyses.)

If one only possesses PhotoShop they can do this test, which will yield the same results for everyone, leaving a skeptic to have to debunk…themselves. It should be noted that all of the analyses performed on Meier's physical evidence - which authenticated them decades ago as well as today - were done with state-of-the-art equipment obviously not available to him at the time. The superficially minded skeptics like to quickly gloss over this stunningly important fact. Of course the professional investigations established that Meier didn't possess the knowledge, equipment, financial or collaborative resources to accomplish what would have in itself been a remarkable, flawless hoax had that been the case.

So one of the many elephants in the room is the WCUFO analysis (as well as the other two analyses) and it ends Mahesh’s argument about the physical evidence, which is why it’s not acknowledged, let alone challenged, by him. This right away tells you that he’s either completely incompetent, or deliberately devious and deceptive…or all of the above.

As you’ll see, Mahesh's implied premise is that: The best evidence is the same as no evidence.

He talks about there not being “any” corroborations for Meier’s prophetically accurate information. However, years ago I published this document based on the earliest corroborations that I had found and which stand, along with many more recent ones posted here (scroll down) and on my blog. I read the earliest of the unofficial English translations, which actually preceded the versions that found their way into Wendelle Stevens' book series, Message from the Pleiades.

A couple of ones that are easily ironclad are Meier’s information about the cause of the contraction of Mercury’s surface and his specifying Arkhangelsk as the exact city to which the Russians would move their troops in preparation for attacks on Scandinavia, the US and Canada. Both of these of course were verifiably published long before “official discovery”, etc.

In the same document, the Henoch Prophecies, Meier predicted the WTC attack, the Ebola epidemic, the fall of France to radical Islam, etc. He first foretold irrepressible worldwide Islamist terrorism in 1958, then again in 1981, 1987 and 1995 (and more about the WTC here).

Meier predicted the discovery of two planetoids beyond Pluto after the turn of the new millennium. He published this information in the 1958 Letter, in a German book in 1978 and Wendelle Stevens also repeated that prediction in a book in 1982. Ironclad.

It just so happens that the Henoch Prophecies were online in English no later than 2006…five years before the Russians moved their troops to Arkhangelsk and almost nine years before the Ebola epidemic.

07:40 Regarding "holding leaders responsible for all the negative things happening on the Earth right now", obviously these things are indeed happening right now and they echo exactly what is in Meier's prophetic information. So Mahesh admits that these things, as foretold by Meier, are indeed happening, though he disagrees that the people who’ve neglected to act should be blamed. Naturally that doesn’t invalidate that Meier indeed foretold the events!

More can easily be established about Meier’s prophetic accuracy from the links already provided.

This one is a real beauty, an example of both Mahesh’s contempt for other people’s thinking abilities, a clear overestimation of his own and just plain flawed and inept thinking:

08:16 "Unlike the other evidence, which really requires a lot of technical know how, for example photos, one needs to know how to fake one, dark room equipment. So even if the experts say something, offer their opinion on the Meier stuff, some other expert might come and may disagree with the earlier expert. So the common guy, ordinary folks may not understand exactly if they just have to go by the words of the expert. They don't, they can't validate it for themselves."

So Mahesh is saying that Meier would need to know how to fake photos, have the equipment, etc., for which not a shred of evidence exists. He’s also saying that the photos were faked. Can he establish Meier's technical expertise, possession of such equipment, when all investigations showed the contrary? This was already covered above and it should now be almost comically apparent how ludicrous Mahesh's unfounded assertions are in regards to Meier ever having hoaxed, or even been able to hoax, the physical evidence.

As far as experts are concerned, isn't the reason we go to experts to get…expert opinions? So Mahesh right away tells us that the “common guy, ordinary folks” aren't smart enough to understand what the experts said but…Mahesh is?

This is what's known not as an appeal to authority but an appeal to idiocy…especially when you consider that Mahesh blatantly ignores what the experts have indeed said, i.e. that Meier’s evidence is authentic, and Mahesh fails to rebut their conclusions with any real evidence. People are too stupid to understand the conclusions of professionals and experts but…Mahesh will tell them the truth. Do we detect a touch of really undeserved arrogance on his part?

Further he says, "They can't validate it for themselves", which as I’ve already shown is a plain lie, which is why he avoided the WCUFO evidence and analysis. Meier took 64 photos and one five-minute video of the WCUFO! That means that right there we have that many examples of his authenticated photographic evidence. Add in the original photographic analyses, and the other two new ones, and well, maybe Mahesh needs to learn how to count…as well as think.

And when he states that there were no other photographers, the fact of the matter is (as is stated on page 449 in the Supplementary Report when Stevens refers to page 134 and ensuing pages in the Preliminary Investigation Report,) that four different people photographed the same UFO, on four different cameras, the photos being developed in four different labs (one in another country).

Supplementary page 449

Does anyone still think that I’m “insulting” Mahesh in the face of this kind of incompetence…or deliberate, cynical misrepresentation, i.e. lying? People are too stupid to understand the conclusions of professionals and experts but…Mahesh will tell them the truth, wow.

Mahesh also infers that Meier could have faked the photos because he controlled the camera, film, etc. However, Wendelle Stevens and the investigators once loaded Meier’s camera with their own film right before he went out on a photo shoot of the craft. They also had it developed and the results were…a full roll of UFO photos.

Mahesh is apparently also “forgetting” Marcel Vogel’s experiment in using infra-red light on a negative that detected an energy connection between one of the UFOs and a Swiss Mirage jet that went up to try to intercept it. We can expect Mahesh to attempt to denigrate Vogel, who was simply a scientific genius from an early age…which he somehow accomplished without Mahesh’s help.

At about 10:21 Mahesh refers to fulfilled prophecies saying "the information has already been known before, published in newspapers, journals, magazines and other places as well…" but he fails – despite this wonderful opportunity – to state even one such specific, previously known example. Many times he’s tried this ploy, saying that some scientists somewhere came up with “similar” information or a theory…but he always fails to actually show the means, motive and opportunity for Meier to have acquired and/or plagiarized this information – especially during the pre-internet age. He also fails to note that Meier never published “theoretical” information or scientific information that was later proven to be incorrect. Never.

As is also typical of everyone of the know-it-all skeptics, despite possessing all of the wonderful technology of today that would really allow him to do what he claims Meier did, i.e. magically acquire information unavailable to him from obscure sources, Mahesh hasn't demonstrated his own ability to predict any specific events, etc. Why, if it was so easy for Meier to do?

People are too stupid to understand the conclusions of professionals and experts but…Mahesh will tell them the truth.

Here are a few more examples of Mahesh’s complete unfamiliarity with logic, reasoning, means, motive and opportunity, as well as the absolute stupidity of trying to equate innuendo with facts.

11:15 While speaking about the 222nd Contact Report about climate change, gases, etc., Mahesh points out that Meier said that he studies publications, etc. And he says that Meier has a TV since 1976.

Well I had a TV in the states from the 1950s on, and I didn't see or know this information. Does anyone know anybody who did? All Mahesh has to do to score one point in terms of credibility is to show that this is the same information that Meier has claimed as his own. Mahesh merely has to prove which shows Meier verifiably had access to, what their content was that was the same as what Meier published later, and of course place him in front of the TV when said shows were on. That shouldn’t be hard for this junior investigator (read: defamer). People’s reputations and lives have rested on less, so since Mahesh is so free with his defamatory comments and accusations…let him prove them.

Virtually everything Mahesh refers to as “the same information” is in fact theoretical, obscure, etc. Since it wasn't even found by us using the internet for several years, how does he explain Meier finding, using it, disagreeing with the details and…never publishing inaccurate information when there's tons of theoretical information out there?

At around 13:00, we’re treated to Mahesh referring to Kal Korff as a source of credible information against Meier! However, Korff's a proven liar who had to publicly retract his false claims about Art Bell on C2C. Further, Korff was exposed as trying to hoax Meier's photos by Garret Moore. And of course my own experience where the presumably “imaginary” Plejaren specifically – and absolutely accurately – forewarned me of a trap that Korff had set and was going to spring, which enabled me to avoid it, when even Meier knew nothing about it before they looked into it for us. Korff's attacks,which included death threats, were so over the top that I succeeded in getting three webhosting companies to take his site down. Try to get a website taken down and you'll understand the situation. And Korff is the guy that Mahesh is citing as credible.

Here, in several parts, is another one of Mahesh’s great conviction-through-innuendo attempts, so stunningly desperate and stupid as to boggle the mind. Mahesh says, at about 13:40, "Meier and his group purchase a lot of books on space, science, history, photography and several other books as well." He mentions that Meier also purchased Kronik, each volume of which is published for one year, etc.

15:24 He points out that one can see Meier in SROT excerpts with the Kronik series, encyclopedia, etc.

15:47 "So we have pretty strong evidence suggesting that Meier has, Meier visited this book shop purchased a lot of books and he himself admits that he goes through, he reads several magazines and constantly updating himself and later we have visual evidence of those books in his library."

Would it be to much to expect that Mahesh could point to exactly what information in which specific books he claims that Meier has copied, plagiarized, etc. Is it reasonable to assume that an intelligent man who is clearly interested in many things just may buy books and magazines for any number of reasons, including to see how science is doing in comparison to what he knows…and has already published? Absent any specific evidence to the contrary, it stands as a likely, reasonable and valid conclusion. BTW, does Mahesh buy and read books and, if so, does that make him a fraud and hoaxer?

And isn't it true that those books take a fairly long time to publish, that they're not electronic books, that the information in them won't even be nearly as current as what one can get online? Don't scientists and other experts also…read books? Does that mean that they plagiarize from them?

What is "truly stunning" is that Mahesh is making wild, unsubstantiated assumptions without one specific example to support them. It’s no wonder that not only did he not invite me to debate him on that show, let alone debate me on my next interview. The more one listens to his “arguments” the more difficult it is to think that he isn’t a willful, inept, dishonest opportunist and, pardon me, world-class coward, who has insufficient real life experience to even begin to question someone whose life is a nearly 80 year long open book.

What really prevented Mahesh from taking even one trip to research directly, to ask questions, confront Meier and/or FIGU members, to examine the locations of photos himself? What prevented him other than being smug, lazy, conniving and vastly over estimating his own intelligence and reasoning abilities?

Here’s a guy who also is rather touchy about being called out for being deceitful…while having no compunctions about accusing someone else of nefarious deeds without ever providing actual, credible evidence to substantiate it.

This is only a brief response to the cumulative crap that this guy has been spewing out…while representing himself as the champion of pro and con. Obviously, he suffers from some sort of self-seeking, profit motivated agenda that will surely reveal itself, if it isn’t clear enough already.

All that he could now claim is that I didn’t answer his agenda. But the facts are such that there is no evidence that Meier has ever falsified anything. That there may have been other parties stealing, manipulation, falsifying evidence has actually long been known, stated, and has indeed been a problem. But it’s real life problem. With their failure to assassinate a man, 22 times, the opposition tried to assassinate his character, obviously an especially delightful activity for Mahesh.

Other things are most likely exactly what Meier has said they were, occasional errors here and there in transcripts – which span 26,000+ pages and which, for a number of reasons couldn’t have been backdated deliberately by Meier. It should be remembered that Meier published and disseminated his Contact Reports in German, beginning in 1975, and which later found their way into other languages. As previously stated, I had very early English translations. For Meier to have been "backdating" this material, he would have had to run around and get all the paper copies, in at least two languages, and start an impossible task that even today in the electronic age would be just about impossible.

This should be sufficient for anyone who weighs the entirety of the evidence, it’s abundance, consistency, specificity, clarity, unambiguousness, etc., and who possess reasonable thinking and investigative abilities.

A man who has spent the majority of his life with the use of only one hand presented this entire body of physical and informational evidence, which spans more than 60 years.

But even if Meier had no hands he would be attacked by snipes like Mahesh with accusations of “hoaxing” the evidence somehow equally magically.

I’ll add that I am also one of the more than 100 eyewitnesses to the craft – I was within 20’ of a small monitoring craft, on October 3, 2011, at approximately 10:05 PM, when I lived in the mountains of Brazil, in Campos do Jordao. While this is anecdotal information, pardon me if I hold such contempt for the behavior of little “experts” like Mahesh who continue to demonstrate that they know…absolutely nothing.

If there are any further questions I can be emailed at: However, I suggest that one thoroughly researches all of the claims by Mahesh on that show and compares them with the specifics here. Time doesn’t permit me to indulge this poseur any further. I suggest that people do their own research if they‘re interested in knowing the truth.

See also:

Pentagon Report

UN Report

Apophis Information


Original article on They Fly

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